24 replies to this topic

[thirstynhowl]

Does anyone get annoyed about job outsourcing.


Any time you call an 800 number - A MUST READ
The gas company serving this area brought their call center back to
Atlanta from India last year after numerous customer complaints. What
a difference now when you call them...and it created 300 jobs. I know
this works because they were so bad that when India answered I
wouldn't even deal with them. I'd simply ask to be transferred to a
supervisor in the U.S. and they would comply.

Now that I know it is the LAW - I will do it for sure

Any time you call an 800 number
(for a credit card, banking, charter communications, health and other
insurance, computer help desk, etc)
and you find that you're talking to a foreign customer service
representative
(perhaps in India , Philippines , etc), please consider doing the
following:

After you connect and you realize that the customer service
representative is not from the USA
(you can always ask if you are not sure about the accent), please, very
politely (this is not about trashing other cultures)
say, "I'd like to speak to a customer service representative in the
United States of America .."

The rep might suggest talking to his/her manager,
but, again, politely say, "Thank you, but I'd like to speak to a
customer service representative in the USA .."

YOU WILL BE IMMEDIATELY CONNECTED TO A REP IN THE USA .
That's the rule and the LAW.

It takes less than one minute to have your call re-directed to the USA .

Tonight when I got redirected to a USA rep, I asked again to make sure
- and yes, she was from Fort Lauderdale .

Imagine what would happen if every US citizen insisted on talking to
only US phone reps from this day on.

Imagine how that would ultimately impact the number of US jobs that
would need to be created ASAP.

Remember - the goal here is to restore jobs back here at home - not to
be abrupt or rude to a foreign phone rep . You may even get
correct answers, good advice, and solutions to your problem - in real
English.

[Hunglikeahamster]

Thirsty,

A call center employee in India makes $1.25 an hour. I'm not really sure many Americans would line up for that kind of job.

In order to be competitive in a global economy, you need to keep cost down or go out of business. What you suggest is a knee jerk action that is based on absolutely no knowledge of running a globally competitive business.

Let's take Apple as an example. They assemble their products in China, but only 4% of the components are of Chinese origin. If Apple were to do all manufacturing and assembly in the US, they would no longer have a product that would be able to compete with products from Samsung etc.

So, by following your example of forcing them to move all production back to the US in order to "create jobs stolen from Americans" you cripple their chances of being globally competitive. Now you have a 100% US manufactured and assembled product that nobody can afford. Apple goes out of business, Samsung takes over and not a single job US was gained, but thousands lost.

And, using Apple was just 1 example. I could give you several others.

yes, peeing in your pants produce a temporary warm and pleasant feeling. However, 5 minutes later you have an entirely different problem to deal with.

[walkertee]

Thirsty,

A call center employee in India makes $1.25 an hour. I'm not really sure many Americans would line up for that kind of job.

In order to be competitive in a global economy, you need to keep cost down or go out of business. What you suggest is a knee jerk action that is based on absolutely no knowledge of running a globally competitive business.

Let's take Apple as an example. They assemble their products in China, but only 4% of the components are of Chinese origin. If Apple were to do all manufacturing and assembly in the US, they would no longer have a product that would be able to compete with products from Samsung etc.

So, by following your example of forcing them to move all production back to the US in order to "create jobs stolen from Americans" you cripple their chances of being globally competitive. Now you have a 100% US manufactured and assembled product that nobody can afford. Apple goes out of business, Samsung takes over and not a single job US was gained, but thousands lost.

And, using Apple was just 1 example. I could give you several others.

yes, peeing in your pants produce a temporary warm and pleasant feeling. However, 5 minutes later you have an entirely different problem to deal with.

What you are saying is not completely true. That is what the corporate media wants you to believe. One thing is right and that is that US labor costs more making the product cost more to produce but the mark up is neglegable. The corporations will still make huge profits just not as huge.

I worked for a major world wide corporation in their US subsidiary at their corporate headquarters. They made anywhere from 300-500 million in profits each year in the US. They out sourced accounts receivable dept, accounts payable departments, some HR people, account administration and their helpdesk. All told about 100 people. Their profit margin has gone up as a result but it didn't make them any more or less competitive. The increase in profit margin was negliable compared to overall profits.

I was in a position to see various company expenditures. We had corp execs traveling to Europe on business, flying 1st class, best hotels, accomodations, etc and having expenditures of $40k-60k for a single weeks trip.

Outsourcing is just greed. Today US corps are sitting on piles og cash and are making more money then ever with their top execs being paid sickening amounts plus corp benefits.

The cost of labor does increase profit margin but not all that much. Apple has cash assets in the billions. Do you really think that Apple would loose competiveness with any corp if its profit margin dropped a couple of percebtage points? That is just a lie to justify outsourcing.

[walkertee]

Thirsty,

A call center employee in India makes $1.25 an hour. I'm not really sure many Americans would line up for that kind of job.

In order to be competitive in a global economy, you need to keep cost down or go out of business. What you suggest is a knee jerk action that is based on absolutely no knowledge of running a globally competitive business.

Let's take Apple as an example. They assemble their products in China, but only 4% of the components are of Chinese origin. If Apple were to do all manufacturing and assembly in the US, they would no longer have a product that would be able to compete with products from Samsung etc.

So, by following your example of forcing them to move all production back to the US in order to "create jobs stolen from Americans" you cripple their chances of being globally competitive. Now you have a 100% US manufactured and assembled product that nobody can afford. Apple goes out of business, Samsung takes over and not a single job US was gained, but thousands lost.

And, using Apple was just 1 example. I could give you several others.

yes, peeing in your pants produce a temporary warm and pleasant feeling. However, 5 minutes later you have an entirely different problem to deal with.

You are absolutely right. My mother first told me about requesting to speak to a US rep about 6 months ago. They have to comply by law. They will try to talk you out of it but just insist and you will get an american.

[Hunglikeahamster]

Walker.

There will always be an example here or there that could prove somewhat difficult to justify.

Bottom line is that in order to be able to compete globally, you have to minimize cost and maximize profit. It's capitalism, the very foundation of our society. And, corporations making profits means more spending, more taxes paid, more research and market expansion. All leading to more US wealth.

Finally, Americans don't want most those low paying jobs we outsource anyway. That's why we have Mexicans doing farm labor. Most Americans won't get out of bed for less than $10 an hour.

Oh, and by the way. I am one of those guys who fly first class on my company trips. And guess what, if you were going to have a business meeting in Paris tomorrow, you'd want to fly first class as well do you could show up rested. In the scope of things, spending $25K for my 2 day Paris trip is peanuts compared to the $10M business contract I bring home. :)

[walkertee]

Walker.

There will always be an example here or there that could prove somewhat difficult to justify.

Bottom line is that in order to be able to compete globally, you have to minimize cost and maximize profit. It's capitalism, the very foundation of our society. And, corporations making profits means more spending, more taxes paid, more research and market expansion. All leading to more US wealth.

Finally, Americans don't want most those low paying jobs we outsource anyway. That's why we have Mexicans doing farm labor. Most Americans won't get out of bed for less than $10 an hour.

Oh, and by the way. I am one of those guys who fly first class on my company trips. And guess what, if you were going to have a business meeting in Paris tomorrow, you'd want to fly first class as well do you could show up rested. In the scope of things, spending $25K for my 2 day Paris trip is peanuts compared to the $10M business contract I bring home. :)

In order to be competitive, locally, nationally or globally, you have to be able to produce a product that you can sell at a reasonable profit that the public is willing to pay. Outsourcing does increase the profit. There is no doubt about that but the savings by outsourcing for most corporations is negligible. They can make a reasonable profit without outsourcing. I’m sure there are some examples here and there where the profit margin is so low that they would have to outsource be competitive but that is not the norm.

Corporations are not outsourcing low paying $10/hr jobs. The majority of outsourced jobs are in the $30,000- $80,000 range. People making $10/hr or less are poor people. Poor people jobs are not being outsourced. It is the middle class jobs that have gone overseas.

I have nothing against spending $25k or more on 1^st class accommodations. You are right it is peanuts compared to the $10M contract you bring home. You are making my point here. The corporations are making big bucks. They have no problem paying top execs big money. They can afford to keep their US workers if they wanted too. It is just plain greed that they don’t. It shows a lack of moral, values and ethics to not keep the very employees whose sweat and blood made the company successful in the first place.

[walkertee]

And, corporations making profits means more spending, more taxes paid, more research and market expansion. All leading to more US wealth.

All leadibg to more US wealth???? So where is all this wealth? The corporations got everthing they wanted from the laws passed by the bought off politicians. They are making more money then ever. They are sitting on more cash then ever. Where is all this wealth? The wealth is out there but it is in the hands of the coporations and not the people. We have more poor people then ever, more people on food stamps then ever. Look at the facts. The rank and file people have much less income, savings, etc then ever before and the corporation have more wealth then ever before. Something wrong here my friend.

[boyntonguy]

You are absolutely right. My mother first told me about requesting to speak to a US rep about 6 months ago. They have to comply by law. They will try to talk you out of it but just insist and you will get an american.

Again, it is NOT a law. True, they will switch you to a US call center but that's SOP and each individual company sets the policy for when to make the transfer.

[Hunglikeahamster]

Walker,

There are countries operation under the terms you propose where it is looked down upon making profit. It's called socialism.

[walkertee]

Walker,

There are countries operation under the terms you propose where it is looked down upon making profit. It's called socialism.

Hold on now. I never said it was wrong to make a profit. Nothing wrong with making a profit. Corporations should make a reasonable profit and their workers should earn a decent wage. It seems to me that the corporations are earning huge profits and paying their workers as little as possible. I can understand corporations wanting to make as much money as possible and keep expenses as low as possible including wages and benefits for their workers but there is a point where it becomes unethical, and immoral if profits are going through the roof but and the workers are barely getting by. Wal-Mart is known for have a majority of their workers on food stamps and welfare without any benefits.

You bring up socialism like it is a bad thing. Keep in mind that there is no perfect system and given human nature we need various systems in place for given circumstances. Probably the worst form of gov't is a dictatorship yet in the US all servicemen live in a dictatorship. Yes the military is a dictatorship that operates within a democratic republic as I believe it should be. I don't think we could have functioning military if it was a democratic system.

I'm a veteran and use the VA for my medical needs. The VA is socialism. I think it works pretty well for my medical needs and I believe that in America’s capitalistic society a socialized medical system would better serve the needs of the people then a capitalistic medical system.

I like our capitalistic system of business over a socialized system of business but exclude medical and certain utilities such as gas and electric. I think it is looking for trouble to turn our prison system over to private enterprise or our mental institutions. They should all be under a socialism system within out democratic society.
I believe in capitalistic society but given human nature I think there should be laws in place to insure fairness and equality. Since Regan was president there has been a steady decline in fairness to the American worker. Big business has been getting a bigger and bigger piece of the pie at the expense of their workers standard of living.

Edited by walkertee, 27 July 2012 - 05:15 PM.

[walkertee]

There used to be a time when charging 20% or more in interest was illegal. It was called usury. I think the banks and lending institutions have a right to make a profit but is it OK to charge 20%-30% or more in interest? Today it is legal to charge over 20% in interest plus fees and penalties bringing actual charges up over 100% in some cases. Should a capitalistic society allow this? I’m not against capitalism. I’m all for it but we need fairness in the system which as I mentioned earlier has been eroding for the average worker in favor of the corporation profits.

[blasta59]

There used to be a time when charging 20% or more in interest was illegal. It was called usury. I think the banks and lending institutions have a right to make a profit but is it OK to charge 20%-30% or more in interest? Today it is legal to charge over 20% in interest plus fees and penalties bringing actual charges up over 100% in some cases. Should a capitalistic society allow this? I’m not against capitalism. I’m all for it but we need fairness in the system which as I mentioned earlier has been eroding for the average worker in favor of the corporation profits.

If you don't think the guy charging 20% is being fair then you go to the guy charging 10%. Once enough people do that then the 20% guy either lowers his rate or goes out of business.

That's called capitalism.....

The government MAKING the 20% guy charge 10%...

That's called socialism (or communism take your pick)....

I prefer the first, if you don't then you are free to move to Cuba. (Oh shit I forgot they don't tolerate illegal immigration - my bad).

[walkertee]

If you don't think the guy charging 20% is being fair then you go to the guy charging 10%. Once enough people do that then the 20% guy either lowers his rate or goes out of business.

That's called capitalism.....

The government MAKING the 20% guy charge 10%...

That's called socialism (or communism take your pick)....

I prefer the first, if you don't then you are free to move to Cuba. (Oh shit I forgot they don't tolerate illegal immigration - my bad).

So back when we had laws on the books making it illegal to charge 20% in interest we were living in a socialist or communist society? I thought it was about people realizing that 20% or more was unfair and to protect its citizens from being taken advantage of by the unscrupulous made that law.

[1florida]

Does anyone get annoyed about job outsourcing.


Any time you call an 800 number - A MUST READ
The gas company serving this area brought their call center back to
Atlanta from India last year after numerous customer complaints. What
a difference now when you call them...and it created 300 jobs. I know
this works because they were so bad that when India answered I
wouldn't even deal with them. I'd simply ask to be transferred to a
supervisor in the U.S. and they would comply.

Now that I know it is the LAW - I will do it for sure

Any time you call an 800 number
(for a credit card, banking, charter communications, health and other
insurance, computer help desk, etc)
and you find that you're talking to a foreign customer service
representative
(perhaps in India , Philippines , etc), please consider doing the
following:

After you connect and you realize that the customer service
representative is not from the USA
(you can always ask if you are not sure about the accent), please, very
politely (this is not about trashing other cultures)
say, "I'd like to speak to a customer service representative in the
United States of America .."

The rep might suggest talking to his/her manager,
but, again, politely say, "Thank you, but I'd like to speak to a
customer service representative in the USA .."

YOU WILL BE IMMEDIATELY CONNECTED TO A REP IN THE USA .
That's the rule and the LAW.

It takes less than one minute to have your call re-directed to the USA .

Tonight when I got redirected to a USA rep, I asked again to make sure
- and yes, she was from Fort Lauderdale .

Imagine what would happen if every US citizen insisted on talking to
only US phone reps from this day on.

Imagine how that would ultimately impact the number of US jobs that
would need to be created ASAP.

Remember - the goal here is to restore jobs back here at home - not to
be abrupt or rude to a foreign phone rep . You may even get
correct answers, good advice, and solutions to your problem - in real
English.

I worked for a very legit company in coral springs and the comany policy was not to tell people where we are located. It is not a small company nor a scam company by any means, it is more for secuirty reasons. However i had co works from jamaca, ny pr cuba where ever and they all had accents which is no problem, bu the customer does not know that. This company was a financial company, not a bank and not an outsource

I also worked for a major computer manufaturing company in az, it was an outsource. Their biz clients call center is in the us, where I worked but for the home consumer, it was out of the country, and it was for computer hardware support.

So as far as it beinbg a fed law, I really don't know about that

That is my .2 cents.

I worked for a scam moving comany and their computer would when I dialed out would come up with the local area code. Their is also softare that will unblocked inknown or blocked number, so if they see your area code they prob have a promp pop up on the screen or a wisper in their ear telling them where the call is from. I have had that also

[mrhappy]

Nope, it is NOT federal law....

I work for a very large IT corporation, in high-level tech support. Our tech support team is divided about 50/50 between America (3 locations) and India. When we get someone who is upset with the Indian support (yes, it DOES happen), the case often gets handed off to us in the USA, but not because it's law. Often it just happens by India handing it off to us (we do the "follow the sun" thing) and the customer asking us to just keep it here and they'd prefer to only work with us during US Business Hours. Other times, it takes management intervention to get it handed from India to us. But it is NOT because of a federal law. It is BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO LOSE A CUSTOMER. Keep in mind that our customers pay $100,000's a year for our tech support (nope--these are not home users).

Now, INTERNALLY, the US team has "issues" with the India teams at times, because of cases being handed off to us where the India team didn't do any/sufficient/correct work on the case. (although we do have a couple of VERY good people in India--just not the majority). Then we have to "clean up" the mess.

Edited by mrhappy, 27 July 2012 - 09:17 PM.

[thirstynhowl]

Who gives a flying fuck if it is a federal law...just DO IT.

I'm sure glad I'm not a girl.

[Tigrman699]

Happy i also worked in a similar position as u (wonder if we worked at the same place..lol) and we had the same issue with our support colleagues from india. However i found it interesting that our enterprise customers from india preferred to have their service requests handled exclusively by someone from india. In fact a few of our engineers found several of these customers to be arrogant and condescending when dealing with them. These customers claimed that got better tech support from their own countrymen...so go figure.

[Hans Zimmer]

Free markets will not fix everything contrary what you fools believe. Free markets get you affordable food, cars and consumer products, they won't get you decent healthcare, police protection, or a good army. I am surprised that Thirsty who started this thread posted what he did because his Republican buddies are all Pro-Outsourcing to the maximum, pedal to the metal ...

Most CEOs don't really have a clue what to do and they do what everyone else is doing, one year it is focusing on core business (spinning off parts of the company), a decade late it is about diversification ...

Outsourcing is way overdone these days and they will come to their senses. Resources in India are underperforming and not liked by the customers and the US-based employees. Anyone, who does? Please step forward. For example, I won't deal with India based Tech Support. Period. Some Indian answers with the first name of Mike LOL, I am done with him, and I am not wasting my time with third world people trying to help me with first world problems.

[foreverOrange]

Some Indian answers with the first name of Mike LOL, I am done with him,

hmmm...INTERNATIONAL playmates?

[mrhappy]

Happy i also worked in a similar position as u (wonder if we worked at the same place..lol) and we had the same issue with our support colleagues from india. However i found it interesting that our enterprise customers from india preferred to have their service requests handled exclusively by someone from india. In fact a few of our engineers found several of these customers to be arrogant and condescending when dealing with them. These customers claimed that got better tech support from their own countrymen...so go figure.

Yep--I'm dealing with one of them right now. American company outsourced their entire IT to India. Their India IT people are downright NASTY on the phone. I can't even get to the guy who opened the ticket--they won't let me near him! On the last call some nasty Indian basically asked me if I was calling to give them a solution or if I just wanted more information. (in reality, I'm trying to get to him to walk him through what he needs to do being that he hasn't been able to follow the instructions of the last 2 other guys who told him exactly the same thing)! In other words, unless I'm going to give him a magical solution (I can't without more research as it's a software issue that's going to have to be given to our developers--mostly in INDIA!), they don't want to hear from me! So, I'll solve it by just calling him when I know he's not in the office. After 3 attempts, I can close the ticket!

Buh-Bye! Thanks for Calling!

Outsourcing is way overdone these days and they will come to their senses. Resources in India are underperforming and not liked by the customers and the US-based employees. Anyone, who does? Please step forward. For example, I won't deal with India based Tech Support. Period. Some Indian answers with the first name of Mike LOL, I am done with him, and I am not wasting my time with third world people trying to help me with first world problems.

Luckily our Indian team use their real names. Well, maybe not so lucky--I can NEVER pronounce them! They're just a bunch of consonants sprinkled with a few vowels in between.... And many of them are LONG names! They don't hide their accents very well, either. Most of the US team communicates with them mostly via email, as they are so hard to understand.

Edited by mrhappy, 29 July 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Tigrman699]

Happy do u work for TP ? Reminds me of an american customer who outsourced IT support to Indian consultant. This women was so nasty that even our support team in india were afraid of her..lol. Funny thing is she was more of an ID 10 T than an IT Specialist.

[Hans Zimmer]

Walker,

There are countries operation under the terms you propose where it is looked down upon making profit. It's called socialism.

No, others call it ethics. A profit doesn't justify everything.

[Hunglikeahamster]

I still have yet to see a company paying their employees salaries in ethics and staying competitive while wallowing in their abundance of ethics while actively avoiding profits.

This leftist utopia is nothing but the typical jealousy scenario. Bad bad companies making profits and not sharing with their employees. Executives traveling first class while their lower level employees have to travel coach. Let's all be one big happy family where everyone makes the same amount of money. The Utopian happy society where no one is left behind. Everyone has the same benefits no matter if they provide anything or not. Let's punish those fat cats for providing jobs and tax revenue.

Zimmer, you write that most CEO's don't have a clue what they are doing... I'm sure you yourself are a super successful CEO of a large global corporation. After all, with your amazing insight, you must be light years ahead of the competition, knowing how clueless those CEO's are.

I do management consulting for some of the companies using outsourcing running their businesses. And, one thing is common for all of them. Had they been using US labor instead, they would not have a chance to be competitive. Given the option, I don't know a single CEO who would not prefer to employ Americans only, but with the extreme cost of doing that, it's simply not an option.

[Hans Zimmer]

I still have yet to see a company paying their employees salaries in ethics and staying competitive while wallowing in their abundance of ethics while actively avoiding profits.

This leftist utopia is nothing but the typical jealousy scenario. Bad bad companies making profits and not sharing with their employees. Executives traveling first class while their lower level employees have to travel coach. Let's all be one big happy family where everyone makes the same amount of money. The Utopian happy society where no one is left behind. Everyone has the same benefits no matter if they provide anything or not. Let's punish those fat cats for providing jobs and tax revenue.

Zimmer, you write that most CEO's don't have a clue what they are doing... I'm sure you yourself are a super successful CEO of a large global corporation. After all, with your amazing insight, you must be light years ahead of the competition, knowing how clueless those CEO's are.

I do management consulting for some of the companies using outsourcing running their businesses. And, one thing is common for all of them. Had they been using US labor instead, they would not have a chance to be competitive. Given the option, I don't know a single CEO who would not prefer to employ Americans only, but with the extreme cost of doing that, it's simply not an option.

When I don't compose music, I do consulting too. Not on the CEO level but one or two levels below that like on the VP or Director level and the company I work for provides managed services to companies in the US and Europe which means we do the stuff that these companies cannot, don't want do themselves or we do it for less money if that's their motivation.

Whenever we have a meeting, the business leaders are always asking what everyone else in the industry is doing. When we tell them company A is doing this, company B is doing that and as long as you can prove it to them, they never do anything else and follow their competitions lead. They never come up with something new. Always.

I saw a company in Boca (hint: think pencils ...) outsource a significant part of their operations to India, reduced their service efficiency by easily 25% and increased their cost by 10%. They knew it and did it anyway because everyone else is doing it too and they wanted to look lean and mean. No kidding. I believe when people start doing things because everybody is doing it, even when the numbers make no sense, a bubble is about to burst. I cannot predict when it will happen but it will. We have seen it before, housing, internet, Y2K etc.

We did have an operations center in India which was closed two years ago because they were unreliable, not significantly cheaper and overall a pain in the ass. We brought those jobs back to NC and hired junior people here. Guess what, they are not more expansive, speak English and are quicker learners. I am convinced that companies will soon realize that exporting jobs 12 timezones away (e.g. having to wait for any answer for at least one business day) is not effective and I personally see the emerging of insourcing consulting firms who are trying to help companies bring back those services in house. I see a lot a executives moving around and more often than you would expect they are thinking about insourcing certain things back. They just don't know how to do it themselves and not many other competitors do it yet. Remember, they don't do anything unless someone else is doing it too. Hence, clueless or at least ball-less.

And you Sir, you talk and you act like these business leaders I often talk to, who are consumed by what everyone else is doing, blindly following other people's examples without evaluating if this makes any sense for themselves. When you say these companies would not have a chance to be competitive, did they actually did a real assessment of this or it it just business presentation bla-bla? There are bookshelves full of business magazines that tell these leaders what to think which is, at the end of the day, only hidden advertisement anyway.

Our European clients (mostly UK) do hardly ever outsource to India for ethical reasons. Think "these are our jobs and we will keep them here as long as we can". These companies are competing successfully in the global markets but they could do better if ethics wasn't a concern but they sacrifice some profit for ethics. I am not expecting a company to go out of business over ethics but to delay painful decisions for their employees if they are not absolutely necessary. Like they do it in Europe, we in the US kick our own people in the ass just to have a tenth of a penny more of earnings on our quarterly report.

[thirstynhowl]

No, others call it ethics. A profit doesn't justify everything.

That's not what SHE said.